Ep. 6: Finding your purpose later in life and looking to astrology for guidance with Salim Catrina

Have you ever interviewed your former boss for a podcast? That’s exactly what I did for this episode!

Salim Catrina is my former boss and current friend, and we took a deep dive into her natal chart during this chat.

This episode is for you if you’ve ever felt like a late bloomer or like you’re finding your purpose later in life.

Salim opens up about how her family, and partner, and job are great, but she’s still looking for something bigger than those things to light her up.

Salim’s chart is one of the most striking I’ve seen for someone who has traveled extensively and lived abroad – serious Sagittarius energy!

Tune in if you want to laugh along with us and hear what a reading with me might be like!

I feel like the things that I you think that will give you or what the world tells you will give you, quote, unquote, purpose in your life are not exactly it at least for me. – Salim Catrina

Salim and I also chat about:

  • Finding balance with your north node and south node
  • Fighting against fiery energy vs surrendering to it – when is fighting against the fight not working?
  • Relationships as a reflection of parts of yourself
  • What it’s like to live abroad in Italy
  • Astrology as a language, and how to choose the right interpreter of the stars for you (aka astrologer) based on your style and preference
  • Interpreting astrology is not about explaining “the thing” it’s about translating the symbols and geometry into concepts or potential concerns in a way the person understands (without having to learn all about astrology)
  • What it’s like having lots of retrograde planets in your chart
  • Finding your purpose in life after 40, outside your kids, your partner, or your career
  • Looking to your north node and midheaven in your chart when it comes to finding your purpose
  • How the midheaven isn’t just about career, but is about your larger calling in life
  • What having a Capricorn midheaven is like and how it might be frustrating to not have a goal to strive toward
  • Being a late bloomer and how to know if you’ve “bloomed”
  • Why your natal chart is your soul’s blueprint (and how validating that is!)
  • What it’s like to have mercury retrograde conjunct your midheaven
  • What it’s like having your north node square your midheaven
  • Working with a grand trine in fire, feeling comfortable taking initiative, but sometimes fiery energy may come too easily

Where to find Salim:

Salim’s Chart

The transcript of this episode can be found here. Transcripts of all episodes can be found here.

Listen to the episode on Apple PodcastsSpotify, Google Podcasts, and anywhere else you listen to podcasts!

Book a Cosmic Consult with me to understand your soul’s blueprint!

Transcript
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Hi, Salim.

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Welcome to It's Astrological.

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I'm so happy to have you.

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Hello, Lynnette.

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It is great to be here.

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So Salim and I are former colleagues,

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just like everyone else I've interviewed on this podcast so far,

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but Salim was actually my boss and she's the best boss I've ever had.

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And I've had some really good bosses and some of them are

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also my very good friends.

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but I am just so grateful that Salim and I not only had an excellent working

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relationship, but now we're like BFFs too.

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So the best

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Love that

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I know So, Salim, so everyone else can get to

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know you where in the world are you?

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And can you tell us a little bit more about your cultural background?

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I can.

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I currently find myself in the bay area of California, and have

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lived here for about 10 years.

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my cultural background is.

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Today, very bay area back in the day was very unique.

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But anyway, my dad and my mom were these great people.

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My dad was Italian.

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My mom was Pakistani.

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We had this sort of weird tense mix of Catholic and Muslim things

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in my house when I was a kid.

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and today I've sort of brought that into my house because we live in a mixed house

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of our own in the bay area because my husband is Italian and I am suburban.

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I am suburban American.

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And so our kids are also growing up with a mixed background.

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but yes, that's a little about me, I guess.

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That is very dynamic.

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And I think one of the reasons why I've so enjoyed talking to you about life,

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but also astrology is because your life experiences just show up so beautifully

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in your chart and your travels.

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And, just how you show up in the world, which is what astrology does.

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But, every time I see your chart and just compare it to who you

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are, I'm like, oh, that's so Salim.

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So excited to dig into it.

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for sure.

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The travel aspects of my chart have always blown me away.

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That is such a huge part of who I am.

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And then the fact that it's in my chart in those really important

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moments of my life is so cool to me.

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I love

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Yeah.

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So while we're on the topic, since It's Astrological, do you know

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your sun, moon and rising signs?

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I do.

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I think my sun sign is Sagittarius, obviously.

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Yes,

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So obviously, and I think both, my moon and my rising

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are Aries, I think that's how it is.

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Is that right?

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you're rising is Aries.

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Your moon is Aquarius actually.

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Okay then, no, I didn't know the full set.

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you probably don't remember the three,

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like if you're not looking at it every day, most people only know their

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sun signs, so you're doing great.

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Interesting that I didn't remember that.

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I feel like I've learned that before about the moon sign,

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but I did not stick with me.

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I wonder if my parents are both Aquarians as, are you.

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And so I don't know if there's some sort of like, not because

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of you more on my parents.

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Same

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thing that I would resist about it.

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So obviously your moon got left in the

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dust a little bit, but how do you feel about your sun moon and or rising signs?

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Like, Do you resonate with them?

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Are you still figuring things out?

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What do you think about those?

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Yeah, probably the latter, because I don't

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know enough about Aquarius to, or how the moon affects things, but I definitely

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feel so Sagittarius as my sun is the most appropriate ever of my life.

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Like I feel like it's super fitting.

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And the fact that my, ascendente, my rising sign is Aries is

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also really appropriate at the same time in my elder years.

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That would be the recent timeframe.

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Um, I don't know.

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I kind of feel like I would like to be less war like than I tend to be.

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So I wonder if there's something I can learn from that Aquarian part of me.

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yeah.

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you have such an interesting, chart, but your ascendant

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is like, you know, the okay.

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Emoji on the phone, you know how, if you zoom in really, really close,

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there's like a little tiny space in between the thumb and the forefinger.

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I had never noticed that,

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Okay.

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I hope everyone looks that

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up now because I sure will.

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But that's how close your

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ascendant is to your south node.

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So they are like kissing in the sky and that's a really strong placement.

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Because your south node is where you've been before.

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It's the gifts that you're bringing in, but it's like maybe in your past

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life, you were an actual warrior or a soldier or some sort of like very

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intense advocate or something like that.

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And with your ascendant being so close to that in being such a huge part

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of who you are and how you see the world, that's a stronger connection

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than most people have to the part of themselves that maybe they're

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looking to outgrow in this lifetime.

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So I know that sometimes you have struggled with fighting for lack of a

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better word, And being the first one out there and having to make your voice

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heard and all of that stuff in certain situations but That makes perfect sense,

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given that your north node is in Libra, the sign of relationship and partnership

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and not being on your own and not taking on those battles by yourself, but it's

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even like, how do I say this, that warrior piece of you, it's not just that it's in

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your first house, it's even more connected to who you are then most other people.

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So for you it's almost like, you need a stronger aha moment or realization

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or determination that you're going to grow away from that, that you're

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going to step away from that.

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Because it's just a, it's like part of your DNA.

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So it's because you're able to tap into it the minute you need it.

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it's so comfortable for you.

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It's such a place where you can tap into that whenever you need it.

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But the lesson for you in this lifetime is how do I not need that so much?

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Or how do I step away from that

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That is so like right now it's especially

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like today and yesterday I have super been feeling this right.

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That part of me is the most comfortable in the most natural.

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And I'm almost like a little bit tired of fighting against it because it's like,

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if you constantly have to fight against something that comes so naturally to

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you, are you also just working too hard?

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At the same time I didn't know that about my north node either

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and the whole Libra part of me.

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I do not feel very connected to.

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And especially right now, I'm dealing with a new environment where it's

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all about teamwork and like somebody is right at your elbow every second.

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And I, I appreciate it.

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I do, I appreciate it.

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I know there is something to be had in that there is value to be had in that,

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but it really feels confining to me.

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And so it feels very unnatural to me every day.

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So it's an opportunity for sure, to like, embrace something that

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I don't naturally tend towards.

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Like, why only do the things that are by default, for sure.

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But yes.

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It's super interesting to know that it's at the opposite end of

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from my aries-ness or whatever.

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yeah, And that's, I mean, everyone's north and south

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node are completely opposite each other.

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That's the whole point, right?

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I think you're going in one direction and you're leaving another one, but

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we always have a choice when it comes to them, because sometimes we are

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in the mood to push ourselves and to try something new and to grow.

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And sometimes we are in the mood to be comfortable and to use the gifts

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that have come to us in this lifetime.

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And both of them are totally fine.

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But what you mentioned about like you're fighting against the fighting, so

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that's like, how do you neutralize that?

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how do you surrender to it?

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And maybe that's a different perspective maybe you surrender to the fight in

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you instead of like the fighting.

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and it may even be a period of observation about where you feel it in your body or

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where you almost feel the resistance cause sometimes I feel like, especially with

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Aries, it's the first sign of the Zodiac.

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So you just jump right in.

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And the old adage for Aries is ready, fire aim.

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So you may be in situations where you're doing stuff before you even realize it.

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And then after the fact you're like, why did I jump into that?

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Or why did I go into that fight?

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And I didn't even have the chance to think about it.

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yeah, very much.

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So I did the full moon in Scorpio spread this morning and, A bunch

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of cards were kind of about like, where are you putting your energy?

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And I guess that's a challenge too, is it's not going to go away.

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So you kind of have to figure out where is it worth applying it, you know?

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that's I guess my big lesson to learn is where is it worth

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applying that level of energy?

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Yeah.

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because Libra, yes.

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It's about relationship.

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but it's also about, is going to sound very obvious, but equilibrium.

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it's the scales, right?

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but, equilibrium comes through your feelings, but it's knowing

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when to lean one way or another.

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So it's actually pretty perfect that it's so close to your nodes because that's

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probably part of your growth pattern.

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And what you're here to learn is I'm imagining being on

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one of those balanced boards.

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And you're just balancing by leaning one way or the other.

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and so when you find yourself, cause you probably go through phases of being like,

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like just going into your Aries mode.

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So finding other ways to tap into that Libra side of you.

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And it's also right on your descendant because your ascendant and your descendant

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are directly opposite each other.

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And all of that is.

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How you are reflected through your relationships with other people.

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So we talk about relationships and you automatically think about the

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other person, but if you could almost take it a step further and see how

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that either the connection itself or that person is reflecting something

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back in you, that you like, that you don't like, that you don't want to

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change, that you do want to change.

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I think that's actually the underlying lesson to figure out how

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to step out of that Aries energy.

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I just don't want to do any

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more group projects Lynnette.

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That's your Aquarius moon, my dear.

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you said you didn't know much about your Aquarius moon and I

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will tell you as someone with a lot of Aquarius in her chart,

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Oh.

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The adage for Aquarius is

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loves humanity, hates humans.

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So like there's a detachment there.

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You're like, you are the best over there.

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Like you just do your work over there and I'll do my work over here.

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Yes, that is true.

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So maybe, okay.

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It's good to know that that's where that's coming from.

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Well, Aries is also, can be very like me first, right?

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Yes.

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this on my own.

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Like you're knocking down.

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I super appreciate that.

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Like every, I don't enjoy personal growth, perhaps others do.

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I don't enjoy it.

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It's hard!

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but I, when I find that it's happened by

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accident, I'm always a better person.

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I'm always a better person for it.

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You know what I mean?

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Like I have friendships that there is no way I would have had I not, but like,

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those are even, even there I have to acknowledge those are, I feel like the

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other person who's caused me to grow.

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Like not because I have wanted to, you know, it's like, despite

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my personality, that I've made those friendships or whatever.

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And then I'm like, oh, that's good.

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Look at, look at that.

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I can do that too.

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I think that's the axis that we're talking about.

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Cause you're, comfortable.

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Aries is, put your oxygen mask on before helping others.

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Aries is just go take care of business.

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Be the first one out there, fight your battles.

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and that may be a little of your Aquarius moon too.

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We're just speaking from the I here.

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I don't need any more friends is my adage.

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but then I'm always happy when they come, but like, to think about

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meeting someone new and learning about them and all of that stuff.

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I'm like, that is a lot of work.

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But then it's like my cute little

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Sagittarius self that's so appreciative of it when it happens.

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Right.

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Cause oh yay, let's chat forever.

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And you're like, I'm going to ask you all the questions and

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I want to learn all about you.

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Yes.

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okay.

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Well, that was an interesting deep dive into your sun, moon and rising, but

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I'm curious how you got into astrology.

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And if you have had any aha moments, that have really connected you to it.

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well, I got into astrology through my friend

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Lynette Wennerstrom who the illustrious

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You knew about it before me though.

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well I knew of its its existence.

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but like I knew that my, I knew my star sign and I knew my,

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what is the ascendant called?

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How do you say in English?

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What is the

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you can say ascendant.

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or rising sign.

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Um, so I kinda, I knew what that was and I always

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have connected to Sagittarius always.

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So that like connecting very strongly with it has been great because

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then I, so I've always given enough time, I suppose to think about it.

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the biggest aha though, I think was when you and I did a reading maybe two

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years ago and there was that really important sort of like travel something.

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And it was in the year that I would have been, or with that I indeed was 19.

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And, that is when I went to Italy for the first time.

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And that was, and remains like the formative turning point of my life

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more than having children more than getting married more than anything else.

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And so that, for me, it was like, oh my God.

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So, because that was just uncanny, because it still remains, like I

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said, like the most important thing.

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Do you remember what that was?

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I don't remember what that was.

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I don't know that I would know how to express

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it, but you were two main, like times in my life, when was at 19.

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And when was it?

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37, frankly at 37 I had just like had Kira.

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So God knows what was going on in my life at that time.

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I think for me, the ages of 36 to present are a little bit confused for that

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reason, but the 19 really blew me away because, and which is a terrible sort of

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thing to say now that I say that because 37 was huge too, and I had my third

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child, but I'm also like, I don't know what happened in that year, but yeah.

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So that's what it was like, you were looking at different things and, 19 was

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about like taking a large risk or taking a large trip or something like that.

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And that's basically.

-:In:-:

my first time living abroad.

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And in my life, I essentially stayed for the next 15 years in Italy

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because being foreign and learning the language was like the best thing ever

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Okay.

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I'm just, I'm trying to find whatever it was

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on a daily basis though.

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And I, I shouldn't say daily, cause I don't know enough about astrology to

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know about it on a daily basis, but I think the thing that it provides for

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me are multiple tiny hahaha moments because it's really validating, you know?

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There are things that are like the times where I have decided I was

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going to bother you about it, right.

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Where I'm like, what is going on in my chart right now because I feel X or I

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feel this unexplained Y and then there is something in my stars that are happening.

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I, that very validating, I don't need the validation to know

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what's happening at the same time.

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it reminds you that your life is a cycle.

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So it's also going to pass you know, like if you're in a moment where you're

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like, Hmm, and usually it's not, when things are going like the best, right.

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Maybe it's confusing or maybe it's negative, but those are the

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moments where you're like, okay, this is not where I want to be or

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this is not like how I usually am.

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So what's going on.

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It's super great to know that that's also like a transitory moment.

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I need that, because I think that being reminded that things like

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that are transitory It gives me perspective, I think, on what

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I'm feeling or experiencing.

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Yeah.

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it's just a transit it'll pass.

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I personally use astrology in the same way more so than

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what's coming up in the future.

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Do I know when a big train that's going to happen or like

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the eclipse that's happening?

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Of course.

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But I think looking back is more impactful in the moment, because

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like you said, it validates how you were feeling or why it took us a half

-:

hour to get set up for this podcast with mercury retrograde or whatever,

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Yeah.

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but then it also gives you the information so that

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you can, then when you do start expanding your astrological horizons and you're

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like, oh, Jupiter's conjuncting with Mars.

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So how was that last time?

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And that gives you insights into maybe how you'll feel the next time around.

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And you start to understand how you relate with the planets and how they

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express themselves through you, because.

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They have infinite expressions.

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their expression through us is just as unique as we are.

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So I think that really helps you to almost build a library or like

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an internal knowing of how these things are going to affect you.

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For example, you have a really strong relationship with your

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south node and with Aries.

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So anytime that a planet like right now, we have had, and still

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have a lot of planets in Aries.

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So it's probably lighting that up for you.

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So anytime as you hear me or any other astrologer being like, oh, they're

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four planets in Aries or whatever the case may be that tells you, oh, that's

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going to light some stuff up for me.

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that makes me go away.

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Everybody I need some space right now.

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You know, that's so interesting for me looking back is always

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the way that it's useful.

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I won't speak for anyone else, but for me, I think using astrology, or even

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when I pull cards through tarot thinking about my current state in my past state,

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there's it's like looking back on your life with a little bit of humility and

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saying like, where was I thinking there?

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I don't think for me, I can't be forward-looking because in your future,

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you're always, you always build things up.

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exaggerate your imagination so much.

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So if something says that you're being too optimistic right now, then

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you immediately assume that I have a, this has actually happened at work.

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The other day, one of my colleagues wrote to me and asked if I had my tarot cards

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nearby because he was having a weird day.

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Could I pull him some cards?

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We had a one-to-one later that day.

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So I pulled the three cards and I have them ready.

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For when we're talking and the interpretation was like, so right in

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the moment, which it was, you know, he had tried to get to the office,

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had not anticipated the traffic was trying to do too many things at once.

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And what the cards message was was about being kind of like overly optimistic.

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So trying to do too much.

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Right.

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But I think if you were to see that in the future, you would tie that optimism.

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At least I would to something much bigger,

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like,

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well you're a sagittarius with stellium in sagittarius

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oh my God, I'm being too optimistic.

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Oh, what's going to happen.

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Everything's gonna be bad because you know, it's not about trying to do

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something in a day for me, it's trying to do, you know, uh, so that's why

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future looking is not helpful to me I think, but yes, I get so much meaning

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out of it and a lot of validation and perspective from the past.

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And so, you know, that 19 year old thing very much was like, one that I carry

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with me where I'm like, oh my goodness.

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but otherwise there hasn't been a reading where there hasn't been a

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tiny kernel that I'm like, yeah.

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All right.

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Okay.

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Let me think about that a little, you know,

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So you've found kernels, you have found

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it validating of your past experiences.

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Is there anything about astrology that you are skeptical about or that

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makes you say, Hmm, that's weird.

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I love this question because you know, for full

-:

disclosure to our audience at home, when I read this question in the notes

-:

that you sent me, I thought about this a little bit, and I think, Like, no,

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there is nothing that is skeptical because I'm not asking of astrology to

-:

again, tell my future or like engage in a pop quiz on what my favorite ice

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cream flavor is or anything like that.

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Right.

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So like, I feel like I know that I come to astrology with my own mixed

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up head, just like I do when I sit down in the morning and I pull three

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cards and I may or may not be ready to receive a certain message right now.

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And I think even that's really helpful for me to know to where I'm like,

-:

yeah, I'm not connecting with that.

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But then again, I know I have my own character.

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I know that be it astrology or anywhere else, it's like, well, if astrology

-:

is very helpful because you also see where your other planets and things

-:

are, and you're like, okay, maybe I'm struggling a little bit over here

-:

right now, which is keeping me from really internalizing something else.

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So I never have that.

-:

I don't expect it to be something that's this like, perfect.

-:

Whatever sooth saying thing.

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The thing that is, and you know this about me anyway, I like to research things.

-:

So the thing that is inaccessible to me about astrology is how complicated it is.

-:

Because like I grabbed onto tarot because I was like, oh, yay, pull a card, read

-:

an explanation, think about it a little.

-:

I can do that.

-:

But astrology is so complex and there's so many layers and there are nodes in,

-:

there are planets and there are houses and there are trines and all of the things.

-:

And, I took geometry twice in high school once a year at once during the

-:

summer, at which point I passed it.

-:

But if I knew about it, that is geometries.

-:

I've got my own hangups about geometry.

-:

Those are my blockers.

-:

I think when it comes to astrology.

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think that's all fair.

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Yes.

-::

I remember during the first reading we did, or even just like casual, I, you

-::

just like went silent and I just heard like frantic typing and I was like,

-::

Salim, are you Googling this right now?

-::

Were like, yes, I am.

-::

Yeah, because I'm so visual.

-::

Like I need to see the logic.

-::

Sometimes it's helpful for me to see the logic like spelled out for me,

-::

but I just can't astrology is the kind of thing you need a guide for.

-::

Or at least for me, I need that.

-::

I can't understand it by myself.

-::

So being what we were saying before is like, I also have

-::

an aversion to group work.

-::

Um, I think, I think that might be something that is difficult

-::

for me that it's not something I can get into on my own.

-::

And I don't want to feel like I'm bothering someone else for as often as I

-::

would want to understand, you know, um,

-:

All day, every day I'm available for retainer.

-:

Well, that's why it's fun that I like you so much.

-:

Right.

-:

Because then, you know, God, you have to really feel, you have to also like

-:

the way the person is explaining things to you and it has to be accessible

-:

because it is so complicated.

-::

what a lovely segue, because

-::

Salim and I are both linguists.

-::

we both have translated in the past and studied language and love language and

-::

all of that, but astrology is a language.

-::

And I think when we're talking about your first look at your chart and

-::

being totally overwhelmed by all the geometry, which PS, I think a lot of

-::

astrologers are also not great at math.

-::

So like that should not dissuade anyone from learning because the

-::

computer does all the math for you.

-::

Everyone can do math by the way.

-::

Yes.

-:

You know, it's all these symbols and numbers.

-:

And I always say pizza pie slices.

-:

And like, what is this?

-:

Right?

-:

you have to have your magic decoder ring to then start to even know like

-:

what Pluto is, because you might be able to identify the sun symbol and

-:

you might be able to identify the moon, but then where do you go from there?

-:

And to your point about finding someone who you like, it's

-:

a really big deal because an astrologer is just an interpreter.

-:

We just know how to speak the language of the chart and then interpret it into the

-:

language of whomever we're speaking to.

-:

And some interpreter is, are better than others.

-:

Some interpreters have a style that you prefer.

-:

and I think everyone needs to find the astrologer that works

-:

for them or the astrologers.

-:

I'm not like a doom and gloom.

-:

Forecasting.

-:

They're like what?

-:

Like that's not my style.

-:

So I think the people who are attracted to me are the people

-:

who've like, you know, empowerment and optimism and all of that stuff.

-:

But I guess tying that back to the language piece, does that resonate

-:

with you in terms of talking about

-:

Oh, totally.

-:

and you can understand why just like a language is a system,

-:

how astrology would be a system.

-:

No question.

-:

Yeah, absolutely.

-:

I see that, but all the same, I'd rather go to you, than learn all about it.

-:

I don't

-:

well, yeah,

-::

never say never.

-:

well, no, I would rather watch, well,

-:

I don't speak German for example.

-:

So I would really appreciate subtitles if I'm watching a German TV show.

-:

Exactly.

-:

You know, that's so funny.

-:

I love that, you know, because at work I manage a team of people whose

-:

job it is not to translate words, but to explain cultural significance

-:

and linguistic importance to people who don't know anything about it, I

-:

super get that also with astrology.

-:

Right?

-:

Cause it's not actually about explaining the thing.

-:

When I used to teach English for which I was not qualified.

-:

So I didn't have the, I didn't have always the, like why we say this and whatever

-:

grammar, but because I spoke Italian, like that was my qualification to teach

-:

English to Italian speakers was that I understood how they were thinking about

-:

the language that they were learning.

-:

Uh, okay.

-:

When you say it that way.

-:

This is how we say it.

-:

So that's how you marry the two thoughts.

-:

And I think that's, what is fun about doing an astrology reading with someone

-:

who can not be super technical about like, not shove it down your throat,

-:

because it's really, how do I marry your question with what we're seeing

-:

here and it can, and how do I translate those symbols into thoughts or into

-:

potential concerns or like concepts?

-:

I love it.

-:

And I love the way you do astrology.

-:

I don't know.

-:

Well, you're my only astrologer also pusher,

-::

small sample size, but go ahead.

-:

but I love the way you do it because you're not

-:

very, you're not black and white at all.

-:

Like that's very much your personality too, but I like that because I

-:

think that is where you're not also putting the pressure on astrology

-:

to answer all the questions.

-:

Right.

-:

And I think that's really important because it's not.

-:

Again, it's not a, yes, you need a decorder ring, but it isn't

-:

this like a message in the sand that all of a sudden has appeared.

-:

It's people interpreting and put, you obviously have to

-:

put your own into it or not.

-:

And if you're again, not ready to put your own into it, then you

-:

probably won't have that moment.

-:

Or you won't resonate in that moment.

-:

And the fact that that's okay too, keeps you coming back to it.

-:

Right.

-:

Because it's just sort of, you haven't found what resonates

-:

today that were to be the case.

-:

and that's okay.

-:

Yeah.

-:

and what you said earlier about the tarot cards and being like, okay.

-:

This is my message for me today, but maybe I'm not ready for it

-:

Or maybe it's actually a heads up of what's coming down the road.

-:

We grow into our charts over our entire lives.

-:

So, you know, I've done readings for your girls who are young women and they

-:

have their whole life in front of them.

-:

So, you know, especially when I'm talking to somebody at the very

-:

beginning stages of their life, it's like, okay, I don't know.

-:

you probably don't know, this is just where you need to maybe keep an

-:

eye out for what may be happening or how you might feel about something.

-:

But I think with astrology, sometimes people can feel like it's so prescriptive

-:

and even like mercury retrograde, right?

-:

Like you're like the worst, like everything's going to break

-:

and I can't go on a trip and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

-:

But an astrologer.

-:

Isn't really telling you anything like we're just giving you information.

-::

and it could be right.

-::

Like, I think I remember this about my chart or I invented it because

-::

it fits with the narrative that I particularly enjoy, but isn't that

-::

don't I have, like, when I like in my natal chart or something, don't I have

-::

like a number of planets in retrograde.

-::

Like I feel like I remember you telling me that

-:

Yes.

-:

So you have mercury retrograde, you have Chiron retrograde, Jupiter retrograde,

-:

Mars, retrograde, and Saturn retrograde.

-:

I didn't realize you had this many plannings retrograde.

-:

Yeah!

-:

And like that's so Salim, isn't it like the thing that's

-:

inconvenient for everybody I'm like, oh, give me more of that.

-::

It's not inconvenient though.

-::

Let's not perpetuate the stereotype.

-:

but I just, you know, yesterday was Friday the 13th.

-:

I was born on the 13th of a month.

-:

So while people have that, that superstition, someone asked me

-:

that yesterday and I was like, heck no, I was born on the 13th.

-:

That is a good number.

-:

Are you kidding?

-:

You know, those kinds of things, like

-:

Well, the number 13 is also like one of those

-:

misconstrue things from witches, right?

-:

Like I don't know the story behind it, but I'm pretty sure it had to

-:

do with like women that were doing something they weren't supposed to

-:

because like numerologically, if you go back 13 is actually a number of love.

-:

So I think the whole

-:

I always thought, so what does it mean about me?

-:

Just didn't put the, these five situations are in retrograde in my chart.

-:

well, I, I did want to say earlier, cause you were

-:

talking about the astrologer always puts their perspective on it or whatever.

-:

my mentor often talks about how we always see everybody's chart

-:

through the eyes of our own.

-:

So when I see your moon in Aquarius, I'm like, oh, Aquarius

-:

means this to me because I have so much Aquarius in my chart.

-:

So that's what comes out of my mouth.

-:

Right.

-:

And I know other stuff, obviously that does not pertain to me because

-:

otherwise that would be really weird.

-:

But even talking about this, I also have a lot of retrograde planets.

-:

So just for context, for anyone who goes to any astrologer, that

-:

is how we see your chart, because that's how we see the world, right?

-:

Like we see everything through the lens of our own experiences,

-:

et cetera.

-:

So as someone who also has, I I've one planet less than you retrograde,

-:

really anything That's retrograde.

-:

We talk about things slowing down, but really turning inward.

-:

So people who have a lot of retrograde planets oftentimes are late bloomers or

-:

take a little while to come out of their shell or to just like figure stuff out.

-:

And it depends on, especially which planets are retrograde.

-:

Like it may be more like mercury retrograde is more mental.

-:

so maybe you keep your thoughts to yourself more or things like that.

-:

But what I've heard from my teachers is that people who have

-:

a lot of retrograde planets really pick up steam after 40 in life.

-:

which is great because I'm excited to see what's coming up.

-:

But I think it's because a retrograde planet and only moves backwards,

-:

but it stops and it moves really slowly until it stops again.

-:

And then it moves really slowly until it picks up speed moving back forward again.

-:

So it's all of these direction changes and moving in reverse that makes someone

-:

who has a lot of those retrograde planets, just be slower for lack of

-:

like do not over-complicate things just means they're a little bit slower and

-:

you're probably more focused on your inner world rather than your outer world.

-::

That's so interesting.

-::

Cause I feel like, I feel like I am a late bloomer, frankly.

-::

I don't even know in what context, cause I guess.

-::

One has not bloomed yet.

-::

You don't know what you're blooming into.

-::

Uh, but at the same time, I'm S I'm such a fast person.

-::

Right.

-::

And like, oh, that's just so interesting to me.

-::

Like, I don't think I figured out that I was a late bloomer until my

-::

late thirties anyway, because it's not like I didn't do things in my life.

-::

Right.

-::

And I don't think I knew what blooming actually meant until that time, in

-::

terms of like confidence in self acceptance and just the different

-::

kinds of perspectives that you would have a kind of maturity and things.

-::

that's something I'd like to learn more about.

-::

I think, especially the specific planets that are in retrograde

-::

and what that may be means.

-:

Yeah.

-:

And the other part of it is that for example, mercury is retrograde right now.

-:

I'm not sure when this is going to air.

-:

I don't, I think it'll still be retrograde.

-:

It doesn't matter.

-:

but for people who have natal retrograde planets, the rest

-:

of the world, Stereotypically.

-:

It's like, ah, mercury retrograde, you know, they're worried about their computer

-:

crashing or dropping their phone in the toilet or whatever the thing may be.

-:

But for people with natal, mercury retrograde, that's the space

-:

they feel most comfortable with.

-:

They feel more comfortable when they, we, our energy aligns more when the

-:

world is asking us to slow down.

-:

When the world is asking everybody to slow down.

-:

When the energy is asking us to tie up loose ends to review the

-:

current situation, all of those retrograde words that start with RE

-:

that's, our that's our comfort zone.

-:

Right.

-:

and that's a little bit contradictory to all of the Aries energy we were

-:

talking about with you earlier.

-:

So that's probably something that you're often going back and forth with.

-:

Yeah, I think that I it's a, it's a consideration

-:

I didn't have when I was younger.

-:

Cause I wasn't thinking too much about it.

-:

And now, you know, especially recently, like, so I changed jobs about four

-:

months ago and not even at that point, did I, was I really right.

-:

Well, I'd needed another job.

-:

So I was just really happy to have it.

-:

and I still am, but I think where I am now, you know, four months.

-:

Right.

-:

So you kind of settle in is that I'm still re viewing,

-:

what I want to do, as a person.

-:

And I was talking to my daughter about keeping, like we talked about keeping

-:

your world big so that your world is not just work or your life because that's

-:

when you start feeling really frustrated.

-:

And I don't feel like my world is big enough right now.

-:

'cause I don't feel like work is where I will be able to put in all

-:

my energies in a satisfactory way.

-:

And I don't know what that means, so for me, that whole like blooming

-:

conversation is really about that part.

-:

You know, like understanding how to balance or understanding

-:

where the right places are to put your energy, that kind of thing.

-:

It's so funny how you think of that?

-:

Because like, I think as a kid, you think of being a bloomer

-:

or a late bloomer is in a very specific, I want to do like X thing.

-:

Right.

-:

Um, which I don't

-:

and I want to do it when everybody else is doing it.

-:

or, or before everybody else, if

-:

yeah.

-:

But like being after everybody else is the worst.

-:

Right?

-:

Like

-:

yeah.

-::

nobody wants that, but some

-::

of us that's just how it goes.

-:

Well, the thing is now I don't even look at.

-:

I don't even look at it in a specific way.

-:

Like, that's really, what's been coming to me recently.

-:

I don't really super, I'm not super interested in like a

-:

particular achievement or a particular phase of my life.

-:

I just know like a certain feeling that I have.

-:

Right.

-:

And, and that's what I'm not getting from this, the one environment of

-:

work, for example, where I know, okay.

-:

Then it needs to be bigger

-::

Well, let's talk about Like where

-::

do you want to put your energy?

-::

Cause I know you wrote in your notes.

-::

Something about it.

-::

so share a little bit, and then we'll look at your chart.

-:

Okay.

-:

I don't exactly remember what I wrote in my notes, but I sure it

-:

was along these lines because I'm really just trying to figure out.

-:

Oh yes, I do remember what I wrote because it was about purpose.

-:

I feel like I came out, I've just come out of a situation where, I feel like

-:

the things that I you think that will give you or what the world tells you will

-:

give you, quote, unquote, purpose in your life are not exactly it at least for me.

-:

So like I have a family, I have three great kids and they all

-:

hopefully will find their purpose, but they are not my purpose.

-:

Right.

-:

Hanging out with them is the most fun thing for me in the world sometimes.

-:

And then other times it's the way it is for anybody.

-:

But like, it's definitely not my purpose.

-:

I have a partner with whom I've been for almost 25 years.

-:

Great.

-:

He is also great.

-:

And sometimes not.

-:

And vice versa.

-:

That is not my purpose.

-:

I have a job that I have been like, you don't have this career that I've

-:

been really fortunate to manipulate in ways that I have wanted to manipulate.

-:

Right.

-:

When I want to make a move, I've made a move.

-:

When I want to grow, I've been able to grow.

-:

That's great.

-:

But I'm finding that that is not my purpose.

-:

Do you know what I mean?

-:

And I don't have a name for it, but I definitely wake up or go to sleep thinking

-:

about like this others type of something that I'd like to be putting my hands in,

-:

but I don't have a shake for it right now.

-:

So that's a huge question mark for me.

-:

Okay.

-:

So when we're talking about purpose in your chart, there are

-:

two places that I would look at immediately, one we've already talked

-:

about and we'll come back to it.

-:

cause I think you have thoughts about it.

-:

but it's your north node in Libra in the seventh house of relationships.

-:

So again, that's what we're here to learn during this lifetime.

-:

So, in big picture terms, it's our life's purpose.

-:

Um, but then we also look at the mid-heaven, which is the

-:

highest point of anyone's chart.

-:

And it really represents a lot of astrologers.

-:

will talk about it as it relates to career, but it's more so your calling in

-:

life, like your purpose, your vocation, and because it's the highest part of your

-:

chart, it's where you're the most visible.

-:

So it's like, how do people see you?

-:

Like, how does society see you?

-:

What's your standing, what's your reputation like?

-:

and in some ways, probably a little bit like, what's your legacy going to be?

-:

So for you, your mid-heaven is right next to not as close as your

-:

south node in your ascendant, but they're very close to each other.

-:

so it's blending energy, that high point in your chart

-:

with your mercury retrograde.

-:

that's interesting because that ties into what you're talking about.

-:

Where, no matter if it's your career, which you're currently talking about,

-:

that mercury retrograde of turning inward and reflecting and having time

-:

to do those things is just completely married with any sort of relationship

-:

to your career or your purpose or your vocation or your calling.

-:

So again, you're talking about having a job right now, but even when you find

-:

the thing that you're looking for, it's going to be really important for you to

-:

have that space and time for those kinds of mercury retrograde kind of themes.

-:

And then it's so funny, astrology always does this, like you

-:

say words and I'm like, Oh,

-:

my gosh, that's exactly what's in your chart.

-:

So you were talking about needing to, I don't remember what the words

-:

you said were, but like you're reaching for something like you're.

-:

Oh, so that I kind of, I didn't have a form

-:

for it, but it's something like, I certainly want to put my hands.

-:

I feel like I wanna put my hands around something, but I

-:

don't know what shape it has.

-:

That's maybe that's what you're referring to.

-:

I don't know, but let's, let's talk this out.

-:

So well, mercury retrograde and your mid-heaven are in, Capricorn and

-:

Capricorn is the sign of achievement.

-:

it's the mountain goat.

-:

The Capricorn always needs a mountain to climb.

-:

Hmm.

-:

you aren't one who just wants to like sit there

-:

and, you know, clock in and clock out.

-:

Like you need to have an objective.

-:

You need to have something that you can

-::

That is exactly it right now.

-::

It, that is totally, I mean, I don't want to stop you because I'm still

-::

interested in what you're saying, but this particular comment that is so

-::

true of me, it is true of who I am.

-::

I always need something to be striving for.

-::

I do not particularly have that anywhere right now.

-::

And it is what it, it definitely is something that frustrates me.

-::

That is why I get myself into terrible situations of

-::

like overworking or whatever.

-::

Because as long as there's a goal, I will like walk over glass for it.

-::

Like, I don't mind I will get, I will get there.

-::

but I don't have that right now.

-:

and then will you walk backwards over

-:

the last cause you're Mercury's retrograde and then, okay.

-:

Like again, going back to the validation, we have done that, right?

-:

So you knew that was a part of who you were before we had this

-:

conversation, but now you know, that That's part of your soul's blueprint.

-:

this is not a negotiable for you, so, it makes sense that

-:

you're looking for something.

-:

But I think knowing that you have this job that you're getting into and

-:

you like, and all of that stuff, also knowing that you're always going to

-:

need, whether through your employment or somewhere outside of employment, something

-:

that allows you to have that space.

-:

So you don't get frustrated, because it's just who you are.

-:

Like, you can't change your chart.

-:

yeah, it is very validating that it's super

-:

interesting because you know what I think, through the, going back to the

-:

personal growth theme, you know, the idea, I think where I am blooming late

-:

is I think I'm understanding that.

-:

Any more, I don't think I'm looking for that through my job, because when I did

-:

have that through my job, it was also very tumultuous and considering my job

-:

is how I support myself and my family.

-:

Maybe I don't want that in a job.

-:

Also when it's in a job that mountain that you're climbing can be taken away

-:

from you and it's not your mountain.

-:

so that's a lesson that I definitely just learned.

-:

but I think I do need a mountain.

-:

I think that's just so interesting.

-:

That's something for me to definitely think about.

-:

but it's also, it is really validating to know that like calling it my

-:

soul's blueprint is like so helpful instead of thinking, like, why are

-:

you guys trying to make things so hard for yourself or what, you know,

-:

Yeah, it's just, it's, it's your DNA.

-:

It's who you are.

-:

And, you know, I think also because like we talked about with your ascendant

-:

and your south node, those energies fusing, so concretely you have the

-:

same with your Midheaven and mercury.

-:

So thinking about mercurial things, might spark what your calling

-:

is because they are interwoven.

-:

So communication equals language equals writing equals technology equals

-:

podcasting equals all of these things, that I know, you know, I mentioned a few

-:

that I know you already have an interest and skill at, but, exploring those is

-:

probably a really good place to start to find out what your personal mountain is.

-::

Yeah, no more rented mountains.

-::

I think that is.

-::

no more rented mountains.

-::

That might be the, title for this podcast.

-::

Oh, and then I guess we can come back to your north node in Libra.

-::

now your north node is in a challenging aspect to your mid-heaven.

-::

So I actually think that makes sense because we're talking about

-::

the relationship and the reflection of yourself through others.

-::

All of that stuff.

-::

but the square is an aspect that is challenging to ultimately

-::

bring you all of that personal growth that you love so much.

-::

so that is also a place where it makes sense where you might feel like I

-::

want to climb this mountain on my own.

-::

I want to have my space.

-::

But then your north node is basically asking you to do group

-::

projects in some way, shape or form.

-:

Yeah.

-:

Yeah.

-:

I wonder how would I have to, there are parts of that, that I like, I

-:

mean, I guess that's like anybody

-:

it's just being

-::

you like people, you like.

-::

I even like humans.

-::

Not just to me.

-::

I actually think I might like humans more than humanity.

-::

I think I'm not super like convinced our though is, are those little horseshoes?

-::

Are those nodes?

-:

Yeah.

-:

So the one that looks like a horse shoe or like headphones.

-::

a fallopian tube.

-:

Or fallopian tube is the north node.

-:

And then the upside down one is the south node.

-:

Oh, gotcha.

-::

So you're like heading this way.

-::

And then here you're releasing.

-:

Got it.

-:

Is anyone's kite ever turned in the other direction?

-:

You know how I have this like little kite it's pointing for the north?

-:

Yeah.

-:

If you had planets over here, it would be facing the other direction.

-:

Interesting.

-:

Yeah.

-:

There's all sorts of geometry.

-::

Does it matter that my little

-::

kite is pointing toward Libra?

-:

Um, your kite, I think we talked about this before.

-:

So a kite is just an aspect.

-:

Like it's a combination of all the different connections between the planets

-:

that looks like a kite, literally.

-:

and there'll be a picture of Salim's chart in the show notes so you guys can see it.

-:

The kite is, It's complicated when the nodes are involved because

-:

the nodes aren't actual planets.

-:

So it's, I guess, up for debate as to whether or not it actually

-:

expresses itself in the same way.

-:

What I would say is that if you ignore the top part of the kite, you have

-:

this just regular triangle equal lateral, is that back to geometry, all

-:

three sides are the same length, but,

-::

see on I took geometry twice,

-::

so trust me, it's equalateral

-:

okay, great.

-:

But, anytime you have it's called a grand trine and it means that.

-:

Things flow really easily for you in the element that these planets are in.

-:

So yours is between Sagittarius, Aries and Leo, which are all fire signs,

-:

which I guess just adds more fuel to the fire if you will, with how

-:

easy fire energy comes along to you.

-:

Now, the shadow side of a grand trine is that it comes too easily.

-:

Right?

-:

And so it's great because you're able, you're comfortable

-:

putting yourself out there.

-:

You're comfortable taking initiative, but sometimes you might be too fiery.

-:

You might start too quickly.

-:

Um, so I think that just continues to play into what we're talking about in

-:

terms of your blooming and your stepping away from that fiery warrior side.

-:

And just looking to balance that out a little.

-:

Interesting.

-:

Yeah, I'd forgotten about that.

-:

Leo part.

-:

I remember that we talked about this in that reading a few years ago, but I had

-:

forgotten that they were all three there.

-:

I mean, what are you going to do?

-::

it's, it's who you are.

-::

And you can take a very homeopathic approach to your chart.

-::

I think a lot of times our first instinct is to fix things,

-::

right.

-::

Um, to be like, oh, I need to balance out my fire with water, which is great.

-::

a lot of times that's a really good way energetically to find balance, but

-::

sometimes, homeopathic remedies work because you give someone a little bit of

-::

the thing, that's making them sick and the body, the neutralizes it in that way.

-::

So if you have a lot of fire in your chart, it's going back to

-::

what we talked about the beginning.

-::

Like, how can you.

-::

Maybe light that fire within you to surrender more how can you use

-::

that fiery energy to actually help neutralize it in a different way?

-::

If that makes sense.

-:

Who knows.

-:

That's an interesting idea.

-:

It seems more, that's a really interesting idea.

-:

It also kind of seems more natural than like I just don't do very well when

-:

I try and directly contrast things.

-:

so that's interesting.

-::

Well, we're not good at it.

-::

I mean, if we don't know how to do that thing, you can't just be

-::

like, I'm going to do that thing to do less of the other thing.

-::

That's not how it works and you don't have a lot of water in your chart.

-::

so that almost makes it harder for you.

-::

Your Jupiter's in cancer.

-::

And that has an opposition to your Capricorn mid-heaven and your mercury.

-::

And then you have your Uranus in Scorpio.

-::

So you have some, and you could tap into your Jupiter energy or

-::

your Uranus energy to kind of turn your fire into steam if you will.

-::

but you also don't have to.

-::

and I think we talked about this with, with your friend, Emily, right?

-::

Like also looking to people in your life who have maybe more water or earth,

-::

energy, that's a way to balance as well.

-::

And that ties in to your north node.

-::

Right?

-::

How do you,

-:

Oh yeah.

-:

how do you balance that out through relationship?

-::

Oh, my gosh, totally.

-::

You know, I feel like I feel good about that in my life or the relationships

-::

that I've chosen, you know, uh, in terms of the relationships that really

-::

ground you or whatever the wording would be between fire and water like that.

-::

Anyway, that balance you it's like those when you go out into the world, though,

-::

the relationships that you don't choose and, how I actually don't even mind

-::

being fiery in the world, but like how it makes you feel like it's also, this

-::

is such a weird thing that that is where I would want to, be able to control

-::

that a little bit more because I, it doesn't, satisfy me like those aren't

-::

those aren't satisfying interactions.

-::

People who are in your life because you want them to be, you trust them anyway.

-::

And so the fire comes out.

-::

It's almost always positive because you've chosen with people.

-:

And another point of balance for you is your med

-:

heaven and your mercury retrograde, right.

-:

Because that's automatically gonna slow you down.

-:

just because of the nature of it.

-:

And they're in Capricorn, which is an earth sign.

-:

So it's grounding, it's earthy.

-:

you can pour the earth on the fire to

-:

I like it.

-:

So it's mid-heaven well, when I was writing it, I was like, is

-:

it high heaven no, I have it.

-:

Isn't

-::

Well, it's the, it's the,

-::

imum coeli is the bottom part.

-::

And I think this is the medium coeli.

-::

oh, how very Italian.

-:

Yeah.

-:

It's Latin.

-:

I love it.

-:

I should, I should know what that actually is.

-:

And maybe not put that part in the podcast.

-:

Should we start wrapping up?

-:

Sure.

-:

Okay.

-:

thanks to one Ms.

-:

Tonya Sabilia.

-:

I have renamed this section of the podcast to not so rapid fire questions,

-:

because I could not stop myself from talking during the questions.

-:

So

-:

Okay.

-::

let's get started Salim.

-::

Do you consider yourself to be more of an introvert or an extrovert?

-:

extrovert.

-::

What is your superpower?

-:

I think my superpower is the ability to move on.

-:

Yeah.

-::

Can you share a little bit more?

-:

I think I can feel things really deeply in

-:

the moment, but I'm very optimistic.

-:

I there's another, anything that kind of like causes me to keep sinking

-:

downward because I'm so interested about what's going to happen next.

-:

And so, because of that, I'm able to like take a moment and usually

-:

just move on, pretty quickly,

-::

That is a super power.

-::

What is your dream travel destination?

-:

uh,

-:

all of them.

-:

I know, I love barring any sort of obligation, human, financial, whatever.

-:

That's all I would ever do.

-:

I love moving around.

-:

I do not mind talking to people at a superficial level and moving on.

-:

You just summarize your chart in two sentences.

-::

so I could not pick a place.

-::

I just love I love traveling to places that are like, yes, spend

-::

two months and feel like you live there a while and then move on.

-::

And I'd love to do that anywhere.

-:

Well, that's another piece of your chart

-:

because your sun in Sagittarius is pretty close to your mid-heaven.

-:

So that's another, like it's right up there at the highest part of your chart.

-:

but Sagittarius is optimism speaking to your answer to

-:

the last question and travel.

-:

Yeah.

-:

Like international travel, like expanding your horizon.

-:

So that's a really big part of your calling in life.

-::

I believe that I feel that

-:

How do you bring ritual into your daily life?

-:

well for me, ritual into my daily

-:

life is absolutely impossible.

-:

That is not who I am, but regular ritual bi-weekly ritual.

-:

I think I do it by, well, the first thing I've ever been able to

-:

enforce for myself, I guess there's even a rapid-fire answers either.

-:

That's why it's not So rapid fire questions.

-:

You're doing great.

-:

Okay.

-:

So I'm doing tarot in the mornings was really, has become a thing that I'm

-:

really happy with because I don't, despite all of the things I just said about

-:

group projects, I don't really know.

-:

Uh, I I'm all over the place.

-:

Like I don't regulate myself very well, but I have learned through

-:

doing, like, taking a moment and spending 10 or 15 minutes and pulling

-:

a card and thinking about whatever question I have all by myself,

-:

that it is actually really helpful.

-:

So that is something for me that like has been really, very helpful

-:

and really positive in general.

-:

I add ritual to my life or I'm able to keep those kinds of rituals by including

-:

other people in them, you know, Maya and I will do a thing together once a week or

-:

my husband and I will do a thing together.

-:

you know, whether it's like biking or whatever, but I, I do

-:

better if in general, if there are other people along the way.

-::

Well, there is your Libra north

-::

node making an appearance,

-:

Yeah.

-::

just The people that you choose.

-::

The people I want.

-::

Yeah.

-::

Also very Aquarian of you.

-::

Okay.

-::

Final question.

-::

Where do you shine brightest in your life?

-::

I think I shine brightest.

-::

Um, when I'm doing something that's like connecting with or caring for somebody

-::

else, like the things that give me the most satisfaction or conversations with

-::

folks about, oh, what do you want to do?

-::

And oh, can I help you think through that problem or those kinds of things?

-::

That's really what I could spend hours doing.

-::

Like I just lose track of whatever.

-::

I don't mind it.

-::

I don't find it depleting.

-::

It totally energizes me.

-::

and I to the language part before I also feel really satisfied by it because

-::

in a way it is a challenge, right.

-::

It's my ability to take myself outside of myself and see if I can interpret

-::

or listen to the signals correctly.

-::

So for me, that's, I think it.

-:

I love how the last two questions of this totally

-:

brought it back to your Libra north node.

-:

And I hope like when you listen back to this, or just think about the

-:

conversation, that those are also really powerful insights for you to find you.

-:

Your mountain or your outside of job?

-:

thing, because you're so good at those things.

-:

That's one of the reasons why I just absolutely loved working with

-:

you and why I'm still so glad that I have you to just be like help.

-:

because you're you're just so supportive and you are like the

-:

best brainstormer I've ever met.

-:

and I think that ties into your Sagittarius placements and just your

-:

openness and you're like, let's try this.

-:

And did you think about that?

-:

And like, you don't have, there's no box for you, right?

-:

Like, you're just like, oh, look at that weird concept.

-:

I just heard about on a podcast, can we apply that to translation or whatever?

-:

that's the beauty of being friends with slim.

-:

So

-:

hooray.

-:

yes.

-:

Also part of your soul's blueprint.

-::

Ah, this is so interesting.

-::

See, I came in thinking I really didn't like others.

-::

That's not necessarily it.

-::

I just don't want to climb a rented mountain with other people.

-:

I think that is very valid and an important

-:

thing for you to know for yourself.

-:

So true.

-:

So true.

-:

All right.

-:

Well, thank you So much for your time.

-:

I can't wait to maybe do this again sometime.

-:

So fun.

-:

I loved it.

-:

And I feel so fortunate actually, because yes, we are doing this

-:

podcast, but I just got to talk about my chart for like an hour.

-:

What a luxury.

-:

I loved it.

-:

Thank you so much.

-:

Loved it.

-::

Talk to you soon.

-:

Okay.

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